So, I know you've all been waiting anxiously for my continued discussion on this topic. You probably had a difficult time eating all of that Thanksgiving pie because of the anticipation (by the way, at my Thanksgiving I learned that a food baby and a real baby cannot coexist inside me).
I just finished reading comments from my students about this question (they were reading about the culture of schooling last week), and I wish that we faculty could have more conversations with our students about our shared investment in and concerns for education. My students' comments covered the range of views, but surprisingly more seemed to be on the side of yes, there are too many students in college. (My favorite comment of them all was the suggestion that funding problems might be ameliorated a bit by not, for instance, commissioning large sculptures of say, a bruin). What to make of this leaning towards too many students when all of these students are currently in college? (of course, some of them are likely not in a transfer program, but pursuing a 2-year certificate or degree). Do they feel that they are the exceptions to the various reasons they stated students shouldn't be in college (mainly not serious enough, not focused in a specific direction, etc.)? Or would they prefer that they could pursue a more "vocational" career, but feel stuck in college because of its acquired/ perceived status?
In their discussion, my students presented some solutions to the "too many" problem and the general lack of preparation they feel many have for college (both in terms of general knowledge/ skills and the ability to efficiently navigate an educational/ career path). Many of their suggestions focused on high school: better academic preparation, more transitional assistance, improved career guidance. They expressed a need for more knowledge about what type of education their career goals demanded and more direct connection between their high school and college academic work. One student suggest that only well-established adults (she's a returning student) should go to college because newly graduated high school students aren't mature enough to take advantage of the college experience.
One of the proposed solutions for the "too many" problem was making a societal shift away from the stigma of vocational education and careers. The underlying assumption here, of course, seems to be that while some students would possibly prefer a vocational education, they desire the social/ economic status that a college education implies--a comment that Middlebrow made previously.
Reading all of your comments and those of my students has been really insightful for me, but I still feel like I have no clear response of my own response to the initial question. One of my students declared, "I'm glad I'm not the person who gets paid to make these sorts of decisions." I feel the same way, except I do feel some responsibility with regard to this issue. Not that anyone's going to pay me, or allow me to make the big decisions, but still. . .
I agree that some students are in college because of perceived value, because it's presented as the necessary step for success and economic stability. I suspect that flexibility is the primary attribute for economic stability, and I'm not sure how a college degree would rate on acquisition of this trait in comparison to other educational/ training paths. I also don't feel that I have a clear sense of the range of career options and how a college degree is considered in various careers. I have a cousin who is a bank branch manager, a job I would have originally thought required a bachelor's degree. But she doesn't have one. I don't think the true value of various degrees is clearly known to most people, but what is known is the assumed value of those degrees. More thorough and direct information about career options and pathways would be valuable, I think. (Of course, it's probably hard to generalize on this one since there is likely endless variation in how individuals got the job they have). Ultimately, I think it would be of great value for us to engage in more discussion about the class-based assumptions we place on degrees and careers.
Although I can see that there are problems with continually increasing college enrollments and that there are/ should be more options than a 4-year degree, I worry that suggesting college is only for certain types will shut down the open access that makes our educational system so great (imho).
For me, this is a very personal issue at the moment. I have a niece who is 20(ish?). She has an extremely poor academic record, only recently getting her GED. She is smart, but she has had a difficult time with schooling for a long list of reasons. She is currently pregnant and is planning to raise the child herself. She has a limited work history, and she just started community college. She is uncertain about what she wants to do, but she knows she needs to do something. At the beginning of the semester, she was absolutely terrified, unsure about whether she would be able to manage her coursework. She seems to be doing well, she's feeling more confident, and she's made a start. She is able to make this beginning--as vague and uncertain as it may be--because college of some kind is available for everyone. There is no one telling her that she is too unprepared, that there isn't enough room, that she needs to have a definite plan. She can make a start, and right now that is probably all she is capable of. While I recognize that open access and high enrollments brings a whole collection of challenges, challenges that no one is really sure how to respond to, I can't help but think of my niece and other students I've had just like her, who didn't really know what they were doing and were completely unprepared, but just needed a place to start, a place to hope. How can we take that away from anyone?
Ruth Asawa retrospective in MoMa
3 months ago
5 comments:
Great post lis. I particularly like your summary of your students' thoughts. What a great prompt for discussion. I just may steal this one for next semester. Who knows?
A couple quick thoughts.
1. One can be for open access and still believe that there are too many students going to college. I don't want to close the gates to academe; I just want some students to realize that they're getting degrees that they neither want nor necessarily need.
2. One can believe that too many students are going to college without becoming Charles Murray, that is without believing that college is only for certain types. Many students are intelligent enough to get that BA in psychology or whatever, but is that what they really need--or are they getting the BA for other reasons?
Good post. I'm disappointed that you're trying to adopt a sophisticated stance, though. Haven't you ever watched The McLaughin Group?
McLaughin: "Lis, are too many students going to college? Yes or no!"
Lis: "Well, its complicated.."
McLaughin: "Wrong! The answer is yes! Next question."
I agree, Lis, that I don't want to take the opportunity. And I agree that maybe the answer is more education. About what kind of education is best. I'm always impressed by students who know exactly what they want.
For example, a student taking my class for the second time. He's smart enough, he just doesn't do the work. He became an EMT and found it boring, decided to become a nurse. He's pulling A's in math and science. He's just busy, etc, and will probably get the needed C this semester.
He can write, he's fine in terms of his skills, it's just a hoop to him. Maybe what students need is fewer hoops and more real education. I mean, I think writing will be important/useful for him, but can it be more relevant? Or more immediate? Maybe that's the whole connection that's missing. Students don't understand how it all fits together. Sure, your friend who manages a bank doesn't need a BA or a BS. But couldn't some Econ classes help? I'd like to think so. But then again, I'm a teacher.
And, of course, I think engineers and stylists could use a writing class. But do they all need the same one?
I have been awaiting this post, and somehow it slipped by me! I think I've been sick or something.
It may be true that a bachelor's degree isn't necessary for some jobs, but it has been true for quite awhile--longer, I think, than Murray and others like him have been saying what they've been saying--that a bachelor's degree remains an excellent indicator of lifetime earning power. Whatever that might signify--I guess I think, too, that a bachelor's degree, acquired at the right time in a person's life, which may not be at age 21, might also signal some cultural capital, some investment in a roundedness of educational interest. I'm not saying I see this in all my students, or even most. I do know that my adult students--"non-traditional"--often want it a lot.
Finally, I take the example of your niece as paradigmatic. American higher education has many entry points, and these can help people find a way toward what they want.
And finally (the real finally), if there needs to be a more rational approach to who needs to go to college (and I'm not saying there does need to be), I would say that the place to start should not be a systematic narrowing or diminishing of college entry points, or systematically limiting educational opportunity. Whatever the lever might be, that can't be the right one.
I'm not sure college is right for everyone, but I definitely think it is pushed too hard in our society. I have a B.S. degree in a field that should have lead to obvious job openings. Unfortunately the Federal government (both US and Canadian) weren't hiring. Answer? another degree. My lack of motivation (not academic ability) almost prevented me from finishing my MS degree. Now I have both degrees, 2 years experience with the federal government and am perusing a new career path, one which I have been interested in since high school and one which requires (dum da dum) a high school diploma, 2 years work experience (as anything!!), and an entrance exam. If accepted (less than 10% chance) I go into a 2 year on-the-job training program.
It seems like this employer sponsored training is a better idea. You give people a test, interview them, accept them into a training/internship program. (In this case 4 months of classroom followed by 15 months of mentoring/self-study). You're paid minimally during training and get a hefty bump once you complete the program.
Even with the very targeted scientific degree I received much of what has helped my at work the past 2 years has been learned on the job. There is simply no classroom replacement for actually DOING it on a daily basis for many jobs.
I think that an important reason we have open access to education has been left. It is important that as a democratic society we have an educated and well informed electorate. If we assume that education is only important as it applies to economic prosperity then yes there are to many students in college, and many other pathways outside of traditional higher education would be more effective for the majority of students. However, if education is seen less about teaching the details of a specific trade or set of skills, more about teaching students how to learn and acquire skills. More about creating a populace armed with critical thinking skills. More about creating a society of analytical thinkers who are both versatile within the work field and positive contributers to the market place of ideas. If we subscribe to the second paradigm then there can never be to many students in college, no matter the logistical problems.
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